Mr. Engebretson:
They would buy squirrel furs, but they weren't nearly that valuable.
There was raccoon, possum was fairly good, mink, and muskrat. Those were
pretty good pelts to sell. Rabbit was ok, but it wasn't that much
because it had a very thin skin. The interesting thing about trapping is
that you just don't go out and set traps out. You first have to know
what you are trapping. My brother used to scope out all the area along
the banks of the creeks.
Mr. Aumack: Which
creeks, do you know the name of them?
Mr. Engebretson: His
trap line ran in the back of Colliers. It ran all along down there and
almost to the creek at The Marlboro State Hospital.
Mr. Aumack: Marlboro
State Hospital, the psychiatric center?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes.
Mr. Aumack: Wow!
Mr. Engebretson:
Later, when he was eleven, sometimes he would take his bike and park it
halfway, and then he would work it both ways. Once you found out what
type of animals you were going to trap, you just didn't take a stake and
put your trap down. You had to boil the traps.
Mr. Aumack: Boil
them?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. You would boil them with tannin log chips, with little chips from
tannin bark, and paraffin. Now you might wonder why you had to do that.
When you boil it with the chips, it would take away the scent of a human
being. The traps were made of steel, and the paraffin gave it a nice
coating and kept it from rusting. Then you would go out and set your
traps.
Mr. Aumack: So the
tannin took away the human smell that the animals would pick up, and the
paraffin kept it from rusting.
Mr. Engebretson:
Right. When you laid your trap, you always put a little bit of leaves
over it. This way the animal wouldn't see the trap and would step on it.
Looking back on it, it was pretty cruel to the animals. Leg-hold traps
are cruel.
Mr. Aumack: These
were leg-hold traps?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. But that is all they had in those days. Trapping was a source of
income, and a lot of the teenagers in Marlboro Township would do this if
they were interested in trapping. And that is the way teenagers made
their money. There was something else interesting during the War.
Remember I told you we only had one car? Gas was limited and rationed.
There was a fellow that would come around to all the farms, and he had a
big van. In the van was bread, milk, butter, cheeses, and everything you
would want for your house. And it was called Dick's Rolling Store, and
his name was Dick Schumacher. His garage is still there on Route 34
right across the street from Red Roof Tavern. He would drive up to your
driveway and stop and ask if you had anything you wanted to buy. This
saved people from having to go to the store, because you just didn't go
down these roads with your car to buy a quart of milk or something like
that. Of course we had a cow anyway, so we didn't buy milk. But we
bought bread, pectin for jelly, salt, spices, and condiments.
Mr. Aumack: So you
didn't bake your own bread, you went and bought it?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes, most of the time we bought it. We had chickens, and we used to take
the eggs and candle them. Candling would make sure that they didn't have
any spots of blood on the inside. Once in awhile you get chickens that
when they lay an egg, the yolk would have some blood in it. And of
course, nobody wants to buy an egg like that. Then we would gather the
eggs, and about once a week we would go down to A & P in Matawan and
trade the eggs in for money to buy groceries. So that was sort of like a
barter system that we had. A lot of times the egg shells got very weak.
If you handled the egg, it would break. So the answer to that was to go
buy some oyster shells and feed it to the chickens, and then their
shells would be nice and strong.
Mr. Aumack: They
would eat the oyster shells?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes, and the calcium from that would be transferred to the egg.
Mr. Aumack: Was this
your father's idea, or was he told this?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
this was something that all the farmers did. Do you know Englishtown?
Mr. Aumack: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson:
Englishtown, during the 1930s when he moved up here, had an auction. You
auctioned everything off. They had a livestock portion where you could
buy calves and shoats, which are young pigs. My father bought a shoat.
Actually there were two of them. One had a hernia, and the nearest
veterinarian was like fifteen miles away. We didn't have money for a vet
anyway. So he took a razor blade, cut it open, took a needle and thread,
and sewed him up, and made a mixture of Lysol, water, and motor oil. And
he put that on the outside. This helped them to heal. In order to raise
pigs, especially if they are boars, you want to have them castrated,
because otherwise they get big, tough, and nasty. So my father flipped
the pig over, cut his testicles out, and put on some Lysol/motor oil
mixture. And other farmers thought he was pretty damn good at that, and
they asked my father if he would do their hogs, too. So he used to go
around and cut all the farmer's hogs. (laughter)
Mr. Aumack: Did they
give him some money for doing this?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes, they usually paid him for that.
Mr. Aumack: I have
another question, because I am so curious about it. What would he do
with the non-used body parts?
Mr. Engebretson: He
would just throw them away! (laughter) And I have another interesting
story. When you butcher a hog, you really have to know what you are
doing. You can shoot him through the head or slit his throat, but to cut
him up and do it right, you really should have someone who is an expert.
Well there was a colored man, and I am old fashioned so I say
"colored." His name was Baltimore, and that's all they called
him. He lived in Marlboro Township. My father got in touch with him and
told him he had two hogs to kill and butcher. So Baltimore had a truck,
and he had a scalder and a tri-pod.
Mr. Aumack: What is
a scalder?
Mr. Engebretson: It
is a great, big cauldron. It is about six feet long and three and a half
feet wide. He had cement blocks that he put this cauldron on, fill it
with water and build a fire under it. He would sit and talk, and the
fire would really be cooking, and the water would start to boil. Before
he was all ready, he would take his killing knives out. They were in a
wooden box wrapped in white linen. He was really theatrical. Baltimore
was like 350 pounds, and he was all muscle. He would sharpen the knives
until they could cut a page from a newspaper.
Mr. Aumack: Was he
like six feet five or something like that?
Mr. Engebretson: He
must have been about six feet tall. He had a tri-pod, a
block-and-tackle, and he had what is called spreaders. You would put the
spreaders into the Achilles heels once you kill the animal. You just
hoisted them up and dropped them into the scalder and let them sit there
for a minute.
Mr. Aumack: Was that
to kill him?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
that was to get the hair off. But I jumped ahead there. Well, Baltimore
had his killing knives. He opened up the box, and it was all white
linen. He unwrapped it, very ceremoniously. Then he got out his steel,
which looks like a rod and is roughly shaped. He took his knife and went
back and forth over this steel, like you may have seen butchers do. Then
he said, "Boy, I think this is sharp enough. Do you have a piece of
paper?" So I went and got him a newspaper. And he held up the
newspaper and slit it in half just like a razorblade, and my eyeballs
almost dropped out of my head!
Mr. Aumack: You saw
this happen?
Mr. Engebretson: Oh
yes, sure. Now the next thing he said was, "I got to have you hold
the hog." When you kill a hog, you stick them in the jugular vein.
And he had a special knife for that one, and that was the one that was
so sharp. My brother was not around, so Baltimore said, "Boy, do
you want to hold that hog?" My father was working, so it was up to
us, and my brother was not around. He looked at me and said, "Ok,
boy, how about you? Are you ready?" And I thought, "Sure, why
not?" (laughter)
Mr. Aumack: How old
were you?
Mr. Engebretson:
About twelve years old.
Mr. Aumack: Oh my
gosh! How big was the hog?
Mr. Engebretson:
About 150 pounds, easily.
Mr. Aumack: Now how
big were you?
Mr. Engebretson: I
was probably about 100 pounds. I was a good size.
Mr. Aumack: How tall
were you, like four feet?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
I was probably closer to five feet.
Mr. Aumack: But
still, this thing is quite a bit bigger than you, right?
Mr. Engebretson: Oh
yes. Of course I fed them, and they were sort of used to me. I was sort
of like their friend, you know.
Mr. Aumack: Oh no!
(laughter)
Mr. Engebretson:
With friends like that, who needs enemies? (laughter) So I straddled his
neck, and I pulled back on his ears. And now his throat was cut.
Mr. Aumack: And he
was on his back?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
he is standing up. When Baltimore stuck his knife in his jugular vein,
it really didn't hurt him. And then the pig walked toward the scalder,
Baltimore had a pointed stick he was poking the pig with. When the pig
got maybe twenty feet away from the scalder, the hog died. Then
Baltimore dragged the hog over to the scalder, put the spreader through
the Achilles tendons, hoisted him up, then lowered it down into the
scalder, soon it would be hoisted up. Then Baltimore took all the hair
off with a curry comb. He curry-combed all the hair off because it was
loose after being in the scalder. Then he hoisted the hog up again, and
he cut him down the middle. And then with all the entrails spilled out,
he was ready to cut the hams and other parts. Baltimore got the head and
the guts, which they call chitlins when they are cleaned and fried. I
have had them, but I really don't care for them.
Mr. Aumack: What do
they taste like?
Mr. Engebretson:
Truthfully, they taste exactly like what's inside of them.
Mr. Aumack: Ooh!
Mr. Engebretson: Did
you ever eat kidneys? Kidney pie?
Mr. Aumack: No, I
haven't.
Mr. Engebretson: If
you have kidney pie or eat kidneys, it smells like urine. Anyway,
Baltimore got the lights, which are the lungs, the kidneys, the guts to
make chitlins, he'd take all the entrails and take everything out to
cook it. He also go the head. We got the rest in a week or so if you cut
the hog down and cut up the hams, you would bring the hams down to one
of our neighbors the Ronsons who had a smokehouse, and Mr. Ronson would
smoke the hams for us. The rest of it, all the chops and other parts, we
brought down to the Keansburg Cold Storage Locker, because nobody had
any kind of freezer in their house. We just didn't have them in those
days. You brought the food down to a frozen food locker, and usually
they had fish down there, too. So that took care of the killing of the
hogs. One of the sports we had…maybe three or four of us would get
together, and we all had 22-rifles in those days. That's what you had
because you were farmers, and if you saw a woodchuck out there, you shot
him.
Mr. Aumack: Now
before you get into the rifle games, well actually go ahead and tell me
about the games, and then you can tell me about hunting stories, if
there are any.
Mr. Engebretson: You
had a rifle you always took with you, and we had pistols on the farm,
too.
Mr. Aumack: What
kind of pistol?
Mr. Engebretson: 22s
and 32s. We would go down to any store, anywhere, and tell them we
wanted boxes of bullets. And they would say sure and sell them to you.
Mr. Aumack: Now this
is when you are thirteen years old?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes- actually, the stores were in villages.
Mr. Aumack: So here
you are walking into a general store, and you're thirteen, and you ask
him for bullets. Now this is in a town where he knows who you are,
right?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes.
Mr. Aumack: Now he
knows you like, "Oh, you are so and so's son," right? And you
say you want these bullets, and he hands them over to you?
Mr. Engebretson:
Sure! Well, you buy them.
Mr. Aumack: Of
course.
Mr. Engebretson: You
could walk down along the road during gunning season with your shotgun
cradled in your arm, and nobody would say a word. Today if you do that,
you'll have 36,000 police after you! But everybody owned a rifle,
everybody. You graduated from a twenty-two, to a 410, to a twenty gauge,
or you jumped right into a sixteen or twelve gauge shotgun. They were
usually single barrel, because you couldn't afford the double-barreled
shotguns. But anyway, you could go on any farm and see all the
rifles stacked up. Kids didn't shoot each other. During the 1940s, we
would go down to Asbury Park. They had the amusement park there. And
they had a shooting gallery, where they had tin ducks attached to a
moving endless chain. You had a twenty-two pumpgun, which held seventeen
shots. It shot live ammunition, and nobody would even think of turning a
gun on a crowd and shooting people.
Mr. Aumack: Why not?
Mr. Engebretson:
Because you had a different type of person then than you do now. They
had very little exposure to violence. You also had a father and mother
to give you guidance and discipline.
Mr. Aumack: Now
there is all this school violence. So a young kid twelve years old could
buy bullets to a gun, and he could buy a gun, right?
Mr. Engebretson:
Sure.
Mr. Aumack: Was it
expensive for a gun?
Mr. Engebretson: I
think at that time, guns were about ten dollars for a single shot 22 rifle.
Mr. Aumack: Now what
would that be like today?
Mr. Engebretson: You
would probably pay somewhere around seventy-five dollars for the same
type of gun.
Mr. Aumack: Would
you have your own gun as a child? And your father would have his guns?
Or would it be the family's guns?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
you would have your own gun. Actually it was my brother who showed me
how to use a gun, because my father was always working. He could shoot,
because he was in the Army. But either your father or an older brother
showed you how to shoot. Once he thought you were sensible enough, you
got your own gun. Twelve or thirteen years old.
Mr. Aumack: See that
wouldn't happen today. And there are cases where children use guns
against each other. Now why was the personality different then?
Mr. Engebretson:
Well, I think there are a couple of things. My feeling is that one, you have TV and all the violent
games. It shows violence, and you have all these violent games that the
kids play, after awhile they get immune to it. They don't realize that
it is killing because it is so easy. On a farm, when you
shot an animal, you saw it suffer. You saw the blood come out, and you
knew it was serious. If you ever shot something that was eating your
crop, you shot it so it would be killed immediately. I had a dog that
had distemper. We didn't have the money to take him down to the vet.
Mr. Aumack: To be
put to sleep?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. I took my shotgun, patted him on the head, and blew him away.
Mr. Aumack: Did you
like your dog?
Mr. Engebretson: Oh,
I loved him. And I cried and cried.
Mr. Aumack: Did your
father tell you to take the dog out back and shoot him?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
Dad told me the dog was very sick. Dad told me he didn't know what I wanted
to do, but that he would never let any animal suffer. So I shot the dog,
buried him, and put up a cross. You knew what suffering was, and you shot
it because you needed to put it out of its misery. Today kids get their
thrills by going up and taking a gun out and shooting a person. They have
no responsibility. The other factor is when you have your mother and father
both out of the house working, there is nobody there when you need them
to tell you what to do. There is no guidance. I'll tell you my take on
things. Today the mother and father have to work. And why do they have
to work? Because fifty percent of our income is taxed. When you have income
taxed at fifty percent, you have to scale down your living until the children
are born. Then the mother goes out to work for that nicer car or whatever.
We need to stop taxing people at fifty-percent and let the mother be at
home. I also think you can't have five fathers in a family. You have got
to have one father, and not five. If you have five, usually none of them
are there at all to give you any kind of guidance. And then you look at
your mother, and you think what a mess this is, and you wonder if you
are ever going to get out of this. I have been in schools where kids have
so-called alternative education for high school students, where you have
kids that are bad news. There would be five of them in a class, the teacher
would read the newspaper, and the kids would be talking with each other.
The teacher gets paid sixty thousand dollars a year, and the kids learn
nothing. Now they get out of high school and get ready for a job. But
they don't have any skills, and they can't read or do any kind of mathematics.
And what happens is you get a kid who doesn't even like himself. If you
don't like yourself, you're not going to like any other person. If you
have no respect, you will walk up to this other person, and tell him to
give you his money. And if he looks at you cross-eyed, you have such a
low opinion of yourself, that you will blow him away. This whole
thing has to change. It has to get back to the point where people have
skills, and they are proud of themselves, and they know things. One other
thing is we have a President that is a disgrace. We want people to look
up to the President and be like him. Reagan was one that you could look
at and know he was really an example of what a President should be. When
he went into the Oval Office, he had his suit coat on with a tie. When
our current President came into the office, the first thing he did was
lower his pants and have Monica Lewinsky do a job on him. How can you
look up to him or have respect? How can you say that is the type of person
I want to be? You can't. Actually, I think it really came in about the
1960s, when I was teaching. We used to read from the Bible. We used to
have the flag salute. When I taught in 1961, you came in with a jacket.
You came in with a tie. If you wanted a beer, you went to another town
so that no parent or child would see you walking out of the bar. You didn't
strike because you were a professional. Today you look at some of the
teachers, and the way some of them dress is a disgrace. When you act like
a union member and you strike, how can anybody have respect for you? There
has to be a big change in America. Our one hope is that we have a lot
of people coming in who are immigrants, who are now doing the lousy, dirty
work that none of our kids will do. The Mexicans and Asians are a few
of those immigrants. They come in not even knowing the language, and they
work their butts off to get ahead. They are good citizens. Part of our
present population wants reparations for something that happened 300 years
ago. It is an "I want something for nothing" mindset. Why not
seek reparation from the African chieftains who sold the natives into
slavery?
Mr. Aumack: Are you
talking about the slaves?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes.
Mr. Aumack: Let's go
back to education because there is a very strong contrast between farm
kids taking off school to spray the orchards, and buying bullets and
guns at twelve years old. You were talking about your education career.
Tell me about what you think of the Colts Neck education system, or the
system you were involved in, now as opposed to what it is was like then?
Mr. Engebretson:
When I went to school, it was rather interesting. You had the three
major subjects: reading, writing, and arithmetic. We didn't have much in
the way of science but then we were on a farm, and we learned about
birth, seeds growing, and protection of the environment.
Mr. Aumack: Well you
learned about birth firsthand with the cows, right?
Mr. Engebretson:
Sure, they were born right in front of you. It was my job once a year to
get the cow serviced (bred). We had one cow, and I would go down to our
neighbor's farm, who had a bull. I had to walk my cow about three miles
down, get her serviced, and then come back.
Mr. Aumack: Serviced
by the bull?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. About seven months later, she had a calf. You would watch her to
make sure that the calf came out right. My father usually was there, and
my mother was always there. And you learned about those type of things
even though you didn't have formal science classes. I can tell you, by
the time we got out of eighth grade, we knew math upside down. We were
ready for high school math. The advantage of being in a class where you
had two grades was that if you were younger and got through with your
lesson early, you could listen to the next grade up recite their lesson.
The teacher would say you could listen as long as you did your work. By
the time you got through graduating from the lower grade to that one
class to the upper grade, you were well prepared academically.
Mr. Aumack: So in a
way, you could set up your own little schedule. If you were happy at the
pace you were going, that was fine, and you weren't discouraged or
anything. But if you worked ahead, it was even better. Now what about
those that lagged behind, what did they do about those children?
Mr. Engebretson:
Usually the kids who were a little slower got a lot of help from the
teacher or from other students.
Mr. Aumack: So it
was good, personal help that was meaningful.
Mr. Engebretson: Oh
yes, definitely. We were all avid readers, and that is one of the things
we had. You didn't really read comic books, but we had what was called
the Big Little Books. They were books that were about two inches
thick. You could buy those down in the stationery stores. Everybody used
to read, and loved to talk about the stories. Today you don't see a
whole lot of that, except for Harry Potter. Now that, to me, is really
great where you have an author who can turn the kids on to reading. But
in those days, you especially read the newspapers, too, because this was
during the War. We read about what was happening in Asia and Europe. We
were interested in it.
Mr. Aumack: So you
were encouraged by your teachers to read about what was going on in the
world?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. And this was pretty much what happened in school. You had your
basics, and you didn't have foreign languages, shop, or home economics.
You got that in high school.
Mr. Aumack: Did you
get history in grammar school?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes.
Mr. Aumack: What
else did you read?
Mr. Engebretson:
Geography, biographies, and stories.
Mr. Aumack: What
stories?
Mr. Engebretson: One
would be Tarzan, and there were stories about other persons that you
could read. Once in awhile, you would get a comic book. But your parents
really didn't want you to read comic books.
Mr. Aumack: Why? Was
that looked upon then like some people now think about television?
Mr. Engebretson: It
had a lot of pictures. They wanted us to read words and not spend most
of our time looking at the pictures.
Mr. Aumack: So you
could use your own mind and imagination.
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. Then we had radio. Radio was good because you had programs like
"The Inner Sanctum," which were mysteries.
Mr. Aumack: What was
it about?
Mr. Engebretson:
Usually it was about a murder or other crimes, and they were catching
the people who did it. The bad guy always got caught. They had "The
Green Hornet," on the radio, and that was the same thing. It was
never anybody shooting and gasping for breath. The criminals were always
were caught.
Mr. Aumack: So there
weren't any shootings in the stories?
Mr. Engebretson:
Well there was some in "The Lone Ranger." He would ride after
the bad guys and shoot them, but usually it was in the leg.
Mr. Aumack: So the
criminal would say something like, "Oh no, I have been shot in the
leg" or something like that?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes, that's how it went. "Good work, Tonto!" (laughter)
Mr. Aumack: There is
a comedy routine by Bill Cosby that says every time the Lone Ranger
asked Tonto to go into town, Tonto would always get beat up. Now tell us
about that.
Mr. Engebretson:
Most of the time he would say, "Tonto, we need some supplies."
So Tonto would say, "Ok, Kemo Sabe. I am going to town." And
Tonto would come back and you couldn't tell that he was all beat up, but
the Lone Ranger would say, "Tonto, what happened to you?" And
Tonto would say, "Three men jumped me, Kemo Sabe." (laughter)
Mr. Aumack: Did this
occur in every episode, where he got beat up?
Mr. Engebretson: Not
every one, they sort of spaced them out or else the poor guy wouldn't be
able to ride his horse very much. (laughter) But all of the programs had
the same theme. The good guys came out best and you didn't have
everybody shot through the head or anything like that. They shot in the
arm or leg, and they captured them and tied them up. They never really
went into a routine of people being hanged, so there was no death
involved. You could use your own imagination though, but the programs
all had a moral value, as did your schoolbooks. McGuffey's Readers,
which were used from the 1860s to about 1900, all had a moral. It was
all patriotic, and the good guys always came out best and the bad guys
lost. And we seem to have lost that type of story in the schools today,
too.
Mr. Aumack: Why have
we, in your opinion?
Mr. Engebretson:
Again, I think that the people who write the books have a
responsibility, and they haven't lived up to it. They have changed
history, some of the books written about World War II. They seem to put
us in the place of killers of women and children in Hiroshima. They
don't say that we gave them three days notice to leave because we were
going to destroy their city. And then when it happened, it was
devastating. The authors try to place the blame on us. It seems like if
you read the social studies books, it really downplays the Japanese who
attacked Pearl Harbor for no reason.
Mr. Aumack: You mean
it really gives them a break?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. During the 1930s, the Japanese were buying scrap metal by the tons,
by the shiploads. And they weren't making toys out of it. They were
building their Army, Navy, and Air Force. Nothing is ever mentioned in
the history books about this. When you look at some of the books used in
our schools today, the morals are not spelled out. I think that there
has to be something done with them instilling patriotism and morals in
these school books, and also accurately portraying what has happened
with our history.
Mr. Aumack: What in
your mind has been inaccurately portrayed?
Mr. Engebretson:
Well especially Hiroshima. We were pictured as heartless and cruel, like
we just dropped the bomb with all the people there, and we just maimed
and killed them. That is not right. They should get their facts
straight. And they should also mention that we didn't start the War. The
Japanese started the War. There was no warning when they came and bombed
Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Aumack: That's
true.
Mr. Engebretson: And
I resent that. Very little is printed on those facts. Do you ever read
in your history books about the Bataan Death March?
Mr. Aumack: No.
Mr. Engebretson: No.
Thousands of American soldiers, sailors, and nurses died. But you don't
read about that. It happened though. And yet you hear about Hiroshima
time and time again.
Mr. Aumack: Yes, I
remember about Hiroshima but don't know about the Death March.
Mr. Engebretson: The
Japanese had a method of torture during the Death March. It was to
sharpen a bamboo sapling that was growing in the ground. They would just
cut the sapling, and they would set a prisoner on that stake by their
rectum. They would do that to whomever they didn't like. And nobody ever
tells about that. Did they ever mention that they would pull out their
fingernails?
Mr. Aumack: And
where have you learned this?
Mr. Engebretson:
During the War in the newspapers.
Mr. Aumack: So
people read this in the newspaper?
Mr. Engebretson:
Sure. And truthfully, there was hatred. And probably propaganda was
meant to create that hatred.
Mr. Aumack: Do you
know of any propaganda or anything that was said that was false against
the Japanese, that we know now is untrue?
Mr. Engebretson: It
is hard to prove.
Mr. Aumack: So not
to play Devil's Advocate on purpose, but would this staking people on
bamboo be true?
Mr. Engebretson:
This is first-hand accounts from the men who came back, so it is true.
Mr. Aumack: So these
men were in the Death March and managed to live, and they would tell you
what happened to some of the other men.
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. People are cruel to each other. We are cruel today to each other. I
inspect schools for safety, and I saw something happen in East Orange. I
was parked at a stop sign, and I heard all this shouting and cursing. I
looked over, and there was a group of maybe a half-dozen black people.
They were cursing at each other, and one guy smacked the other in the
mouth. In my day if you smacked somebody in the mouth, they would go
down, and you would walk away. Or maybe you would say, "Do you want
another one?" But this guy walked over to him and with his feet, he
stomped the guy's face. And the other people were cheering. I just
looked and thought, "Oh God, what is this world coming to?" In
my day, if you acted smart, you got a smack in the mouth, and maybe you
got a couple of teeth knocked out. But you probably deserved it, and the
other guy took pity on you and would walk away. It's not that way today.
When people grow up and watch television and see all this violence, they
just become immune to it.
Mr. Aumack: Some
people see Vietnam soldiers with their wounded and their cries, and they
are immune to it. Is this because they have played video games and think
it's like the same thing?
Mr. Engebretson: A
good part of it is, yes. They think death is just another event. They
see it on television. They see a guy during a war blow somebody's brains
out in front of the camera, and they think it's not a big deal. They
don't have a good concept about what life and death is, and it's a
shame.
Mr. Aumack: Let's
get to your Korean War experiences. I have seen numerous memoirs lately,
because Korea is having a fifty-year anniversary. So tell me how you got
into that War.
Mr. Engebretson: As
I said, my father was in World War I, and my brother was in World War
II. And the Korean War came along, and I thought this was something that
I should do for my country. So I joined.
Mr. Aumack: So you
enlisted?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. I was in for four years, but I didn't get over to Korea. I was in
the Seebees on the East Coast, and we were attached to the Second
Marines. I was in ACB2.
Mr. Aumack: What is
a CB and an ACB?
Mr. Engebretson: ACB
is an amphibious CB. And a CB is a Construction Battalion. And probably
I got into that because I was a farmer and I knew mechanics, etc. I
wound up as a mechanic on a jeep and a duck.
Mr. Aumack: What is
a duck?
Mr. Engebretson: A
duck is the one that goes out into the water, and it can go on land,
also. It has a little propeller in the back, and it would go down the
beach. It is just a big vehicle with tires and a propeller in the back,
and it's shaped like a bathtub. You would go from the beach right into
the water, and the propellers started working, and away you would go
like a boat. Now that was fun. So I was a mechanic for four years. One
of my friends I went to school with, he was just the nicest guy. His
name was Henry Bratigaum. I read about it in the paper that he was in
one of the landings, and he got it right in the head. He wasn't on the
shore any amount of time at all. And I thought, "What a
tragedy!" Here was a guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, and he was
drafted in the Army, and he got it.
Mr. Aumack: Did he
enlist?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
he was drafted.
Mr. Aumack: Now what
landing was this?
Mr. Engebretson: I
am not sure what landing that was in the Korean War. But I read about
it, and it was really sad. He was a nice guy, and he had a nice family.
The thing that bothers me the most is that we never learn. We had World
War I, and we were going to have a League of Nations that was going to
be the answer. We had World War II, and that was the United Nations that
was going to be the answer. And that was going to be the end of all
wars. And then we had the Korean War. When I was with my wife out in the
Elder Hostel for the Church of Latter Day Saints tracing our ancestors,
there was one class that was talking about memoirs. I said I would
probably do something about my days in the Korean War. And the
instructor said that wasn't really a war. And I said, "Let me tell
you something." And there were a bunch of people there about my
age. I said, "Tell that to the 56,000 people who were killed!"
I said, "Tell them it wasn't a war!" He said I was right.
Mr. Aumack: I am not
defending them, but people say that because they technically are calling
it more of a police action. And that's what I learned. They don't call
it a "war" because a war wasn't "officially
declared." But I agree with you, sir.
Mr. Engebretson: Any
war you have where you kill people, it is a war. I think the people are
so tired of unnecessary wars that when the people from Vietnam came back
home, people were just fed up with it. They didn't want any war. We
haven't learned our lesson. The President is a draft dodger. And what he
did was to send our airplanes, not our troops, to Kosovo. There we
bombed women and children…for peace. You read the papers today, and
tell me if there is any peace there. There is not.
Mr. Aumack: What do
you think he should have done, sent troops?
Mr. Engebretson: I
think he should have left it to the Europeans because that is in their
backyard. Are we going to accept people coming from Europe over to here
and tell us how we are going to handle our riots? No, you let those
people take care of it. And that is unless the European community asks
us to come in. But thank God he is going, so we don't have to have
something like that again. But we didn't have any wars with Reagan, did
we?
Mr. Aumack: No, not
to my knowledge. Let's discuss more about the education system. What
else can we get into?
Mr. Engebretson:
Well, I can tell you about my education system. My brother was six years
older than I. By the time I got into high school, he was a very good
student. He was perfect in everything, and I am sort of sloppy. As long
as I get by, that's ok with me. Well a couple of teachers at the high
school asked me why I wasn't like my brother.
Mr. Aumack: What was
your brother's name, by the way?
Mr. Engebretson: Ed.
I heard this comment about three or four times, and I was in my junior
year when I just decided that was all I could take. And so I quit
school. And my Mom persisted in telling me not to quit school, but I
wanted to join the Navy. So I joined the Navy. I loved mechanic work at
that time, and I still like it. I couldn't go to mechanics school in
California. I asked why, they said because I was a high
school dropout. Well, when I got out, I got my high school
equivalency diploma. I went to Monmouth Junior College, which was
meeting in the high school in Long Branch. I took two courses, and I got
Bs in both of them. I was working as a planker for Henry Luhrs, who was
a boat manufacturer in Morgan. We had a layoff. I thought maybe I would
try to go to college. I had taken two courses, and I enrolled. I
had the GI Bill. Otherwise, I couldn't really have afforded it. So I
took four courses, I think, and got As. I met a girl whose brother was
working for Hercules or Dupont where they make film. He was a custodian
for that company, and he was going to NYU. I thought if he could go to
NYU, why couldn't I go to college? So I went full-time to Monmouth
College. I studied, and I studied high school English at the same time I
was taking college English. I worked with my father on the farm. I was
taking twenty-one credit hours, and I wound up getting my degree a year
early. I made the Dean's List five out of six times, and was given the
Outstanding Student Award. I had a year left and went to the University
of Pennsylvania, and finished there a two-year program in one and a half
years. I went on to get a Masters from Newark State College.
Mr. Aumack: In what?
Mr. Engebretson: In
education. I have one Masters in Business from Wharton School, and I
have a Specialist Degree from Rutgers University in Administration
Supervision. So I sort of proved to myself that I could do it. Anybody
can do it if you really want to. The story of my education in Matawan,
when I finished about two years at Monmouth, I applied for a substitute
certificate. And they sent the application to my brother. (laughter) And
later I became one of the members of the Board of Education in Matawan.
Mr. Aumack: What
year did you become a member of the Board?
Mr. Engebretson:
1967 to 1970.
Mr. Aumack: What was
the schooling like in 1967?
Mr. Engebretson: It
is interesting. At that period of time, we were going through a change
in education.
Mr. Aumack: What
kind of change?
Mr. Engebretson:
Open classrooms.
Mr. Aumack: What do
you mean by that?
Mr. Engebretson:
They thought that instead of having individual classrooms, you should
open up the whole school. You should build the school to accommodate
interaction between the students, and they had the concept of team
teaching. So we developed the school into three schools, which had
that type of education. And then after we did this, the teachers
disliked the concept in Matawan. At first the teachers thought it was
great. They went out to Illinois with us, came back and developed a
whole plan. And then after it was built, those same teachers decided
they didn't like it anymore.
Mr. Aumack: Did they
quit?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
we built partitions to separate it into individual classrooms again.
Mr. Aumack: Did that
ever happen anywhere else in New Jersey that you know of?
Mr. Engebretson:
Probably.
Mr. Aumack: But you
don't remember any specific places offhand?
Mr. Engebretson: No.
Mr. Aumack: What did
you teach when you were a teacher?
Mr. Engebretson: I
started to teach in Old Bridge Township in the middle of the year. I had
a fifth grade class. After that, I taught fifth grade science and social
studies and then later the same subjects in sixth and seventh grades.
Then I went on to Farmingdale, where I was the Principal there. I went
to Marlboro Township, and I had bigger and better experiences in my
life. And they were good experiences.
Mr. Aumack: Were you
ever a teacher or administrator in Colts Neck?
Mr. Engebretson: No.
Mr. Aumack: Discuss
the Marlboro education system then compared to the way it is now.
Mr. Engebretson: I
have been away from it for quite awhile, but the people whom I know are
good people. They are current as far as innovations and curriculum go.
They have a fellow named Tom Nicola, who is the head of curriculum
department. He is excellent. The teachers for the most part are pretty
good. One thing that I don't agree with in the school system is the
middle school concept.
Mr. Aumack: Why?
Mr. Engebretson: I
don't think they need shop.
Mr. Aumack: Wood
shop?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. I think it's a waste of time. If you really want to know something,
you can learn it on Saturday, or watch your father, or wait until high
school to take shop. But we need to build the educational foundation in
middle school. We need more computers, and the kids need to become
computer literate. They need to read, write, and understand and do
mathematics. I look at some of the kids who work at checkout counters,
and they get absolutely fogged out if their electricity goes out or
something happens to their cash register. Middle school shop and home
economics is not really necessary. Do you really need to have home
economics for the children at middle school? They can take that in high
school. You should have the middle school as the basis for your high
school. We need to build the kids knowledge so that they are proficient
in math, science, social studies, and language arts.
Mr. Aumack: Are you
saying that home economics is a not bad thing, but if they want to learn
about something like that, they should do it in their spare time?
Mr. Engebretson:
Sure. If anything, learn foreign languages in the middle school instead
of having a semester or quarter in shop or home economics. I don't
really see the value.
Mr. Aumack: We are
in Colts Neck right now. Do you know about the zoning regulations around
here?
Mr. Engebretson:
Somewhat.
Mr. Aumack: Tell me
about what you think of the zoning regulations?
Mr. Engebretson: I know that
the mini farms have five-acre minimums.
Mr. Aumack: Here?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
this is like one and a half acres here. In order to preserve the
pastoral complexity here, we have five-acre mini farms. They haven't
developed any strip malls, which is good. We can go to another town and
shop, if we have to. The schools I think are pretty good. One thing that
I resent is the voting for new schools. They say it is going to cost you
x amount of dollars for the bond. But if you are really going to be
truthful, then tell the voters the total amount which would include the
additional teachers, custodians, counselors, and anyone else who is
needed. As it is, you are not going to see the additional people hired
on until you get your tax bill.
Mr. Aumack: So it
will be a lot higher than what they thought they were going to be
paying?
Mr. Engebretson:
That's right.
Mr. Aumack: So a lot
of people in Colts Neck feel cheated?
Mr. Engebretson:
Some felt that they were misled.
Mr. Aumack: Was this
the bill over Colts Neck High School?
Mr. Engebretson: No.
Mr. Aumack: So this
was the vote that built Freehold Regional School then?
Mr. Engebretson:
This one I am talking about was the one that was added on to Conover
Road School up here and over at Cedar Drive School. And you don't mind
paying for something if somebody tells you the full truth; you can
accept that. In order to have additions put on schools, like an
all-purpose room, you have to have bleachers, cabinets, and everything
else associated with it. Just put it all down, and let the people know
everything and not just part of the cost. Next time a referendum comes
up for a vote, the people will feel like they weren't told everything
and will vote against the items. People like my wife and myself, who
were in education, realize the importance of schools, but it's just the
idea that you are being told half-truths that isn't good public
relations.
Mr. Aumack: And some
people may not even vote because they know they can't trust them, even
if it would be the truth, right?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. Well it's the same thing with the government, you know. Senior
citizens cry and moan about the cost of prescription drugs. And the AARP
is always saying you have to have this and that. And not one of them
will ever ask why we gave six billion to the Palestinians since Camp
David every year, and why did we give six billion to Israel, and why did
we give hundred of millions of dollars to Africa to fight AIDS? Our
people here have cancer. My wife just got through with radiation
treatments. She didn't bring it on herself. Africa did -- with
fornication. If you are going to help, help us first.
Mr. Aumack: Take
care of home before you go out.
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. And how many billions of dollars did it cost to bomb Kosovo? Help
our people first, and then be generous to the rest of the world. And I
really get annoyed about that type of thing. You can't do anything about
it. Once the politicians decide they are going to do it, they are going
to do it.
Mr. Aumack: How can
any Colts Neck resident preserve the environment that it has now?
Mr. Engebretson: I
think they are doing it. They have a good Mayor and Council. What they
are doing is to preserve it as some sort of an agricultural township. So
they are limiting the number of houses that are coming in. And they are
building a senior citizen's complex for assisted living. They aren't
saying you can't have assisted living, but let's have a plan. They don't
want house upon house upon house. You notice we don't have sidewalks
here. We have our own well for water, and we have our own septic tanks.
So we don't have city water, we don't have city sewers, and we don't
have sidewalks. There are no streetlights. And you might think this is
primitive, but it is not. It is rural, and this is the type of thing we
want to have and the type of community in which we want to live.
Mr. Aumack: That's
very different from me. I live in a one-square mile town, Fair Haven,
and we have streetlights, and my family just took out the huge oil tank
from the backyard. So it varies from town to town.
Mr. Engebretson:
Well, we do have gas here. And we have electricity. But we don't have to
worry about a monthly charge for water or for sewer.
Mr. Aumack: And
that's something that other towns would tax on, right?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. You have to pay the water bill to Consolidated Water or whatever it
is called, and you have to pay a sewer bill to the utility company.
Usually if you have a municipal authority, if you use ten gallons of
water, they figure you use a gallon of sewage. So the two are tied
together. But here we can use as much water as we want. And that is one
of the advantages here. Some people might complain about not having
sidewalks, but how often do you use them? If you really want a sidewalk,
put it in front of your house. Nobody is stopping you. You just get a
permit and build a sidewalk.
Mr. Aumack: What has
changed in your life in Monmouth County?
Mr. Engebretson:
There have been a lot of changes going on. Marlboro is a good example of
a lot of changes. People complain that the farms aren't there any more,
and I look back and reminisce. But I can't really feel sorry, because
people have to live some place. They want to get out of the cities. So
they come out here. That's one side of the coin. The other side of the
coin is my parents were farmers. As the years went by, the cost of
fertilizer tripled and quadrupled. My father bought a tractor in 1945,
and that same tractor would be ten times the cost today. You usually
paid people to pick by the basket, but now you have to pay them by the
hour. So the equipment went up,
the labor went up, the fertilizer went up, and your taxes went up. The labor supply is not abundant like it used to be. So the farmer looks
at his land and thinks some people make fifty thousand dollars a year,
and I make maybe twenty thousand dollars a year and more with all my expenses.
This same farmer is now sixty-five years old. Shouldn't he be allowed to
sell his land? A developer comes along and says he'll give him
seventy-five thousand an acre. And the farmer thinks that's not too bad,
especially for highway frontage. So the farmer thinks maybe he should
sell and enjoy the good life. Or should he put the land in escrow and
get someone to farm it for him and get ten thousand dollars a year for
the rental? No--let's sell land.
Mr. Aumack: He is
going to go for the higher price from the developer.
Mr. Engebretson: Why
not? All his life he has paid taxes, has supported the local, state and
federal government, and isn't it about time the farmer makes the money
he should? If you have a business and decide to sell it because you are
tired of working and not making a good profit, who should tell you that
you can't sell it? Now if the government offers to give the farmer the
same amount of money as the developer, then fine, buy the land. Whoever
has the money wins. The problem the farmers have right now is that he
should sell and retire or continue farming. You are going to find more and more small
farmers going out of business and selling. There is another side to
this. Some farmers are going to specialize in crops, they may grow
herbs, flowers, or sod, which is not as labor intensive. You'll find
that some farmers may have found a niche.
Mr. Aumack: Your
father used to be an ironworker in New York City?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes.
Mr. Aumack: Where
did he work in New York City?
Mr. Engebretson:
They were building high rise apartments and skyscrapers going up in New
York City, and on Long Island.
Mr. Aumack: So he
was building some of the first skyscrapers you mean?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. And that was dangerous. There were no safety belts, and you walked
the beams thirty or forty stories up.
Mr. Aumack: Did he
ever tell you anything about anyone ever falling off?
Mr. Engebretson: He
told me a couple of people that he knew fell off, yes. He also worked in
the Navy yard in Brooklyn, New York. He was one of nine children. When he was twelve
years old, they didn't have enough food for the entire family, so he had
to go out and work as a baker's helper. He lived at the bakery and gave his
earnings to his father to help support the family. At fifteen years old, he went to
sea as a cook on a ship, a coal freighter out of Liverpool.
Mr. Aumack: And he
moved down to the farm to help make sure you were well and to make a
fresh start?
Mr. Engebretson:
Well he was still working, but it was mainly for me with my health
problems that we moved to the farm. The things that you learn on a farm
are pretty neat. The owners of the farm were really nice people. They
used to come up on the weekends, and they always wanted to have two or
three dressed chickens. They would make chicken cacciatore, etc. I would
have to kill the chickens, pluck and got them.
Mr. Aumack: Now this
was when you were twelve or thirteen years old?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. Now my brother was in the Merchant Marines then. So I would chop
the head off the chicken, and it would flop all around. Then I would get
a bucket of boiling water and stick it in, and then strip all the
feathers off. Then I would open it up and take all the entrails out.
Mr. Aumack: The
chitlins, right?
Mr. Engebretson: No,
those aren't chitlins.
Mr. Aumack: What do
you call those?
Mr. Engebretson:
Just intestines. Then they have something called a crop, and it grinds
up the food using the stones inside. It grinds up all the food before it
goes to the intestines.
Mr. Aumack: Oh, the
crop was a body part of the chicken.
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. They call it a gizzard. Well, you just don't go out and grab hold
of a chicken by the neck and say, "Sorry, this is your day!"
(laughter)
Mr. Aumack: Well,
how do you do it then?
Mr. Engebretson:
When we bought chickens, we bought them from Pennsylvania Hatchery, as
day-old chicks. They came in a box. You could order pullets, which are
all females, or cockerels, which are the males. They usually came in the
wintertime, and you put them under your stove to keep them nice and
warm. Then you would put them in the brooder, out in the chicken house.
The brooder has a light bulb underneath that keeps them nice and warm.
Then they start to grow. They eat all the food that you have given them.
Some day you have to look at each one and ask if they are productive.
Well, how do you tell since they all look the same? You flip up the
chicken so its neck is pointing down, and there would be like pelvic
bone like those on a human being. Now the females lay eggs. If you can
put three fingers between their pelvic bones, which is where the egg
comes from through, it is a good layer. But two fingers means it is time
to go. So that is the one that you grab hold of to kill for food. That
is called "culling the chickens." For years and years I never
knew how they found out whether a baby chick was a male or a female.
Mr. Aumack: How did
they know?
Mr. Engebretson: I
inspected a school down in South Jersey. As this custodian and I were
talking about farms. He lives on a farm. We started talking about
culling the chickens, and I told him how I never understood how they
knew the difference between a male and female chick so he told me. He
once worked in a hatchery. They had Japanese workers who came from the
West Coast, and they lived in South Jersey. They were in west coast
concentration camps, and were moved to south Jersey to keep an eye on
them during World War II. The hatchery incubators hatch the eggs. They
had high school students come in with big boxes of chicks that were just
hatched. Two boxes were sitting in front of the Japanese worker. They
had thick glasses like they use for gemstones. They would grab hold of a
chick and open up its legs. You and I have a navel when we are born. We
get our nourishment from the placenta. A chick has almost the same
thing, except it is called an egg yolk sack. When it is born, that drops
off. But if you spread the legs and it has one dot, it's a pullet. And
if it has two dots, it is a cockerel. And they would separate them out
from each other into boxes. There is ninety-five percent accuracy in
determining sex. I asked what they called these workers, and the
custodian said they were called chick sexers. I wondered if he was
pulling my leg, so I went down to the library and went to the dictionary
of occupational titles, and there it was. A chick sexer is a person who
determines the sex of a chick when they are born.
Mr. Aumack: How do
you kill a chicken?
Mr. Engebretson:
There are a couple of ways, but I didn't like to slit their throat
because it would get blood all over. I grabbed the chicken by the legs,
and I would tuck one wing on the left side of the leg and take the other
wing and tuck it alongside the other leg. Now they are held in one hand.
I used a chopping block, and I would rap the chicken's head on the
chopping block, just to stun him. I would give him a chop with the
hatchet, and I'd have to make sure my hand wasn't in the way. I had a
peach basket, and I would put him in there to flop around. They really
can't get out of there, so they flopped around and bled.
Mr. Aumack: So you
knocked them out to stun them and then you cut its head off?
Mr. Engebretson:
Yes. I don't like to look at a chicken's eyes when I'm doing it! He was
thinking, "You used to be my friend. You fed me every day!"
(laughter)
Mr. Aumack: I have
heard stories about them running around. Can they run around?
Mr. Engebretson:
They don't have a head anymore, so they can't see where they are going.
So the involuntary muscles make them flop around. In about thirty
seconds or so, they are all through.
Mr. Aumack: Tell me
something that you would tell to the younger generation on how to
preserve Monmouth County and any advice you may have for them about
anything.
Mr. Engebretson: You
can preserve Monmouth County to a certain extent. I think what the State
has done by buying farms is a good idea. The County has done quite a
bit. If you go around to the County parks, on Route 537, it is still
farmed. It is leased to the farmers, and they grow hay and grain
on it. You have to balance what you have in the way of nature as opposed
to what your needs are. People lose sight of that. In California
especially, they have a type of butterfly that is only indigenous to
there. It is nice to see it, but some day that butterfly is not going to
have a home. What will happen is, he'll probably fly off to the next
farm down the road. And you don't have to condemn that land for
butterflies. So you have to use common sense. If you have low lands, you
don't build on them. Don't fill it in. Let the frogs and birds stay
there. But if you have good farmland, you either farm it or sell it for
houses. Also you don't build right near the ocean. These people that
build near the ocean get federal insurance. They shouldn't receive
federal flood insurance. They are building too close. And they are apt to
have their homes swept away. We should not have our tax dollars used to
support the federal flood insurance in this case.
Mr. Aumack: Well, I
think this is a good place to stop. I thank you, and it has been a
pleasure and an honor, sir.
Mr. Engebretson:
Thank you.